do pages and posts make sense?

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do pages and posts make sense?

Markus Lutzer
According to discussions in several threads many people would like to
use categories for Pages. I think that such a feature would allow more
freedom in the structure of a website. AFAIK it would be easy to
implement it but could result into problems with category specific
templates. Is this true and are there other implications? Why can't
pages belong to categories? Are there any patches or plugins to address
this issue?

Isn't page and post very similar to each other? Probably a blog is just
a specific category. Why not use only one terminology (e.g. "post") and
drop the other (e.g. "page") but add a new category "blog"? Users would
be free in the choice what they want to do with there posts. Several
blogs can easily created just by listing the posts belonging to the
specific blog-category. Additionally this concept would be more easy to
understand and to manage in the user interface than the current one.
What do you think about these issue?

Reference: http://codex.wordpress.org/Pages
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Andy Skelton
On 5/18/06, Markus Lutzer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> According to discussions in several threads many people would like to
> use categories for Pages. I think that such a feature would allow more
> freedom in the structure of a website. AFAIK it would be easy to
> implement it but could result into problems with category specific
> templates. Is this true and are there other implications? Why can't
> pages belong to categories? Are there any patches or plugins to address
> this issue?

Somebody slap Markus for saying the word "easy" without posting some code. ;-)

Markus, bear in mind the primary reason for pages: people need a unit
of content that lives outside of the chronological structure of the
weblog. Now imagine the category view with some pages mixed in. Where
in the reverse chronological order would you put a page? It doesn't
fit.

It's possible to write a query to get a set of pages and then display
them in some sort of order. The prime example is Manage Pages in the
admin. You get the page titles listed in a hierarchical format. It's
even possible to assign categories to pages in the database.

What remains to be decided:
* Whether it's even a worthwhile feature for WordPress
* How to display a category view of pages
* Whether and how to merge pages and posts in a category view

My answer to 1 is "no" so I haven't spent any time on 2 or 3.

Andy
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Andy Staines
Andy: worthwhile it might not be but that shouldn't dispense with the  
fact that it is an oft-requested feature on the forums. And wouldn't  
not including categorised pages in category post lists just be  
another parameter to the tag..?

Andy
ANDY STAINES
email | [hidden email]
www  | www.yellowswordfish.com

On 07:48  PM |  Thu 18 May 06, at 07:48  PM |  18 May 06, Andy  
Skelton wrote:

> On 5/18/06, Markus Lutzer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> According to discussions in several threads many people would like to
>> use categories for Pages. I think that such a feature would allow  
>> more
>> freedom in the structure of a website. AFAIK it would be easy to
>> implement it but could result into problems with category specific
>> templates. Is this true and are there other implications? Why can't
>> pages belong to categories? Are there any patches or plugins to  
>> address
>> this issue?
>
> Somebody slap Markus for saying the word "easy" without posting  
> some code. ;-)
>
> Markus, bear in mind the primary reason for pages: people need a unit
> of content that lives outside of the chronological structure of the
> weblog. Now imagine the category view with some pages mixed in. Where
> in the reverse chronological order would you put a page? It doesn't
> fit.
>
> It's possible to write a query to get a set of pages and then display
> them in some sort of order. The prime example is Manage Pages in the
> admin. You get the page titles listed in a hierarchical format. It's
> even possible to assign categories to pages in the database.
>
> What remains to be decided:
> * Whether it's even a worthwhile feature for WordPress
> * How to display a category view of pages
> * Whether and how to merge pages and posts in a category view
>
> My answer to 1 is "no" so I haven't spent any time on 2 or 3.
>
> Andy
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Andy Skelton
On 5/18/06, Andy Staines <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Andy: worthwhile it might not be but that shouldn't dispense with the
> fact that it is an oft-requested feature on the forums. And wouldn't
> not including categorised pages in category post lists just be
> another parameter to the tag..?

There is no doubt that these suggestions can be implemented. The
reason I say it's not worthwhile is that it's a half-baked idea.
Somebody says "Let's categorize pages" and that's great, that's a seed
of a new feature set, but it's missing all of the important details:

What problem are we trying to solve? Or is this just a solution
waiting for a problem? How should it change the user interfaces, both
admin and public? What else will be affected? And many more. So this
is the point where one or two of the following will happen:

* Nobody has any idea about the details.
* This thread grows with ideas and arguments until it composes enough
rope to hang everyone involved but nothing actually gets done.
* Somebody has a bright idea and codes it.

My only reason for responding, despite remaining in camp #1, is that I
hope somebody will turn this half-baked idea into something
worthwhile. That remains to be seen.

Andy
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Elliotte Harold
In reply to this post by Andy Skelton
Andy Skelton wrote:

> Markus, bear in mind the primary reason for pages: people need a unit
> of content that lives outside of the chronological structure of the
> weblog. Now imagine the category view with some pages mixed in. Where
> in the reverse chronological order would you put a page? It doesn't
> fit.

This seems fairly obvious to me, but perhaps otehr people have different
schemes. For example,

http://www.elharo.com/blog/privacy/2006/05/17/virtual-account-numbers/

is a post in the privacy category.

http://www.elharo.com/blog/privacy/virtual-account-numbers/

would be a page in the privacy category.

Links to /blog/privacy/virtual-account-numbers/ could appear on other
pages in the privacy category, but not other pages in other categories
such as tech or birds or travel.

This would probably need to be themeable so different schemes could be
implemented.

I'm not sure how easy that is to implement, but it doesn't seem hard to
envision.

--
´╗┐Elliotte Rusty Harold  [hidden email]
XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published!
http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Andy Skelton
On 5/18/06, Elliotte Harold <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Andy Skelton wrote:
>
> > Markus, bear in mind the primary reason for pages: people need a unit
> > of content that lives outside of the chronological structure of the
> > weblog. Now imagine the category view with some pages mixed in. Where
> > in the reverse chronological order would you put a page? It doesn't
> > fit.
>
> This seems fairly obvious to me, but perhaps otehr people have different
> schemes. For example,
>
> http://www.elharo.com/blog/privacy/2006/05/17/virtual-account-numbers/
>
> is a post in the privacy category.

You broach a whole new issue by bringing up permalinks. I was talking
about blog views where more than one page matches the query. To follow
your permalink structure, the question is: what should be displayed
for http://www.elharo.com/blog/privacy/ ?

Andy
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Elliotte Harold
Andy Skelton wrote:

> You broach a whole new issue by bringing up permalinks. I was talking
> about blog views where more than one page matches the query. To follow
> your permalink structure, the question is: what should be displayed
> for http://www.elharo.com/blog/privacy/ ?

Essentially the same thing that's displayed now. Pages wouldn't be part
of the loop. However, the pages link on the right hand side would only
include pages that were listed in the privacy or No categories. They
would not show pages for other categories like tech or birds.

In essence, there'd need to be a function to grab all posts from this
category, and all posts from this category+no category.

--
´╗┐Elliotte Rusty Harold  [hidden email]
XML in a Nutshell 3rd Edition Just Published!
http://www.cafeconleche.org/books/xian3/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596007647/cafeaulaitA/ref=nosim
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Paul Menard-2
In reply to this post by Markus Lutzer
I've read through the other comments to this. I agree adding Page
categories would not seem logical.

One rider on this I would like to add however is some ability to make
Page draft. Of the 23 WordPress installations I support for clients the
biggest request seems to be 'Why can't a make the Page draft like I
can Posts?'

Seems there are many content authors who want to create the page an
save the Page for future edits but not actually publish it.

I do realize the problem however. In the wp_posts table the post_status
column values are 'static' for Pages, publish, draft or private for  
Posts. I'm
sure there are other values like attachment. So would the simple  
solution
be coming up with a new token? Then all of the logic changes to the core
code to support displaying or not displaying this Page.


Paul



On May 18, 2006, at 8:48 AM, Markus Lutzer wrote:

> According to discussions in several threads many people would like to
> use categories for Pages. I think that such a feature would allow more
> freedom in the structure of a website. AFAIK it would be easy to
> implement it but could result into problems with category specific
> templates. Is this true and are there other implications? Why can't
> pages belong to categories? Are there any patches or plugins to  
> address
> this issue?
>
> Isn't page and post very similar to each other? Probably a blog is  
> just
> a specific category. Why not use only one terminology (e.g. "post")  
> and
> drop the other (e.g. "page") but add a new category "blog"? Users  
> would
> be free in the choice what they want to do with there posts. Several
> blogs can easily created just by listing the posts belonging to the
> specific blog-category. Additionally this concept would be more  
> easy to
> understand and to manage in the user interface than the current one.
> What do you think about these issue?
>
> Reference: http://codex.wordpress.org/Pages
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Rob Miller-4
Paul Menard wrote:

> I've read through the other comments to this. I agree adding Page
> categories would not seem logical.
>
> One rider on this I would like to add however is some ability to make
> Page draft. Of the 23 WordPress installations I support for clients the
> biggest request seems to be 'Why can't a make the Page draft like I
> can Posts?'
>
> Seems there are many content authors who want to create the page an
> save the Page for future edits but not actually publish it.
>
> I do realize the problem however. In the wp_posts table the post_status
> column values are 'static' for Pages, publish, draft or private for
> Posts. I'm
> sure there are other values like attachment. So would the simple solution
> be coming up with a new token? Then all of the logic changes to the core
> code to support displaying or not displaying this Page.
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>

This has already changed, although I can't remember quite when it was.
Posts now have a post_status (which can be publish/draft/private/etc)
and a post_type (which can be post/page/attachment etc).

--
Rob Miller
http://robm.me.uk/ | http://kantian.co.uk/

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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Michael B-2
On 5/18/06, Rob Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Paul Menard wrote:
> > I've read through the other comments to this. I agree adding Page
> > categories would not seem logical.
> >
> > One rider on this I would like to add however is some ability to make
> > Page draft. Of the 23 WordPress installations I support for clients the
> > biggest request seems to be 'Why can't a make the Page draft like I
> > can Posts?'
> >
> > Seems there are many content authors who want to create the page an
> > save the Page for future edits but not actually publish it.
> >
> > I do realize the problem however. In the wp_posts table the post_status
> > column values are 'static' for Pages, publish, draft or private for
> > Posts. I'm
> > sure there are other values like attachment. So would the simple
> solution
> > be coming up with a new token? Then all of the logic changes to the core
> > code to support displaying or not displaying this Page.
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
>
> This has already changed, although I can't remember quite when it was.
> Posts now have a post_status (which can be publish/draft/private/etc)
> and a post_type (which can be post/page/attachment etc).



I've tested 2.1 Alpha  whatever, and  Pages will have  draft  status .

~miklb


>
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Markus Lutzer
In reply to this post by Andy Skelton


Andy Skelton schrieb:

> On 5/18/06, Markus Lutzer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> According to discussions in several threads many people would like to
>> use categories for Pages. I think that such a feature would allow more
>> freedom in the structure of a website. AFAIK it would be easy to
>> implement it but could result into problems with category specific
>> templates. Is this true and are there other implications? Why can't
>> pages belong to categories? Are there any patches or plugins to address
>> this issue?
>
> Somebody slap Markus for saying the word "easy" without posting some
> code. ;-)
>
> Markus, bear in mind the primary reason for pages: people need a unit
> of content that lives outside of the chronological structure of the
> weblog. Now imagine the category view with some pages mixed in. Where
> in the reverse chronological order would you put a page? It doesn't
> fit.

Solution 1: Pages are also created on a specific date; why not use this
date when they should be listed in a chronological order?

Solution 2: It's up to the administrator if pages and posts are mixed in
the same category. I could imagine a category "tech blog" for my blog
but also a category "tech tips" for instance. Other blogs as "journey
blog" or "work blog" could also be created easily by assigning
posts/pages to the specific category. When the user selects "tech tips"
she should see all the pages/posts each containing a specific tech tip.
If you still feel unhappy with mixing posts and pages, categories could
be of a type "post" resp. "page" and does allow pages resp. post only.

I hope to make it clear that in my idea every (!) blog has to have a
category to define which posts/pages to display. (of course a super
category "all" should also be possible)

I hope to got your point but please correct me if I missed it.

> It's possible to write a query to get a set of pages and then display
> them in some sort of order. The prime example is Manage Pages in the
> admin. You get the page titles listed in a hierarchical format. It's
> even possible to assign categories to pages in the database.
>
> What remains to be decided:
> * Whether it's even a worthwhile feature for WordPress

I would like to use categories for pages to have some categories in the
main navigation menu. The user should be able to continue to a specific
page by selecting in a sub-menu after she selected one category.

> * How to display a category view of pages

depends on the argument provided to the function:
- chronological order (default). This is nothing else than a blog
- alphabetically
- others, e.g. relevance, manual defined order

> * Whether and how to merge pages and posts in a category view

see above.

> My answer to 1 is "no" so I haven't spent any time on 2 or 3.

With respect to your opinion I think it would be an advantage for the
users to be free in choice. As I already wrote it would also make the
concept of WP more understandable. I guess many first-time-users are
thinking "what is the difference between Post and Page?"

Markus
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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Mark Jaquith
On May 19, 2006, at 3:45 AM, Markus Lutzer wrote:

> Solution 1: Pages are also created on a specific date; why not use  
> this
> date when they should be listed in a chronological order?

Because that is the primary difference between pages and posts.  
Posts have a chronological flow.  Pages are chronologically agnostic.

> With respect to your opinion I think it would be an advantage for the
> users to be free in choice. As I already wrote it would also make the
> concept of WP more understandable. I guess many first-time-users are
> thinking "what is the difference between Post and Page?

I've not seen this confusion.  When people hear "post" they think  
"blog post," i.e. chronological entries.  When they hear "page" they  
think "contact page" or "about page" i.e. non-chronological entries.

Freedom of choice, for anything that is less than moderately popular,  
is accommodated though the plugin system.  WordPress 2.1 is gaining  
the ability to have arbitrary post types... so "categorized_page"  
could be created, and it could behave as you like.

> I would like to use categories for pages to have some categories in  
> the
> main navigation menu. The user should be able to continue to a  
> specific
> page by selecting in a sub-menu after she selected one category.

One way to do this would be via parent page containers.  If I were  
going to do it with categories, I'd probably make my own page2cat  
table to manage the associations without interfering with post2cat.

Bottom line is that this isn't something that the average user is  
going to want, and it'd just add coding, debugging, maintenance,  
documentation, and usage headaches if it were included in core.  I'd  
write it as a plugin for the WordPress 2.1 branch.  That way, you and  
the people who want this functionality can have it, but ordinary  
users (and developers) aren't burdened by a minority-use feature.

--
Mark Jaquith
http://txfx.net/


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Re: do pages and posts make sense?

Markus Lutzer
Mark Jaquith schrieb:
> On May 19, 2006, at 3:45 AM, Markus Lutzer wrote:
>
>> Solution 1: Pages are also created on a specific date; why not use this
>> date when they should be listed in a chronological order?
>
> Because that is the primary difference between pages and posts.  Posts
> have a chronological flow.  Pages are chronologically agnostic.

Yes, as described in the wiki. But I'm talking about if this makes sense.

>> With respect to your opinion I think it would be an advantage for the
>> users to be free in choice. As I already wrote it would also make the
>> concept of WP more understandable. I guess many first-time-users are
>> thinking "what is the difference between Post and Page?
>
> I've not seen this confusion.  When people hear "post" they think "blog
> post," i.e. chronological entries.  When they hear "page" they think
> "contact page" or "about page" i.e. non-chronological entries.

These terminology could remain by providing two categories "posts"
"pages" by default.

> Freedom of choice, for anything that is less than moderately popular, is
> accommodated though the plugin system.  WordPress 2.1 is gaining the
> ability to have arbitrary post types... so "categorized_page" could be
> created, and it could behave as you like.

Does any such plugin exist? This would be very helpful for me.

>> I would like to use categories for pages to have some categories in the
>> main navigation menu. The user should be able to continue to a specific
>> page by selecting in a sub-menu after she selected one category.
>
> One way to do this would be via parent page containers.  If I were going
> to do it with categories, I'd probably make my own page2cat table to
> manage the associations without interfering with post2cat.
>
> Bottom line is that this isn't something that the average user is going
> to want, and it'd just add coding, debugging, maintenance,
> documentation, and usage headaches if it were included in core.  I'd
> write it as a plugin for the WordPress 2.1 branch.  That way, you and
> the people who want this functionality can have it, but ordinary users
> (and developers) aren't burdened by a minority-use feature.
>
> --
> Mark Jaquith
> http://txfx.net/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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