Redactor WYSIWYG Editor for WP

[Frank Bueltge]

Hello at all,

yes, the TinyMCE is an long story and big implementation.
But maybe its an idea for the feature, that WP get an new editor -
faster, smaller and an better customization, API, Filter- and Action
Hooks.

Current I like the Redactor Editor (http://redactorjs.com/). Its an
small lib with many possibilities to create an custom editor. The
editor works only with jquery, but this is current a big part of WP
backend and exist on all backend pages.
It's also possible to add hooks for wp standard solutions.

Maybe other people have also ideas, hints or comments to this small mail?
Thanks for your time
Frank
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[Mike Schinkel-6]

Looks great! But it's license is not GPL compatible. :-(

-Mike

On Aug 2, 2012, at 2:38 AM, Frank Bueltge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello at all,
>
> yes, the TinyMCE is an long story and big implementation.
> But maybe its an idea for the feature, that WP get an new editor -
> faster, smaller and an better customization, API, Filter- and Action
> Hooks.
>
> Current I like the Redactor Editor (http://redactorjs.com/). Its an
> small lib with many possibilities to create an custom editor. The
> editor works only with jquery, but this is current a big part of WP
> backend and exist on all backend pages.
> It's also possible to add hooks for wp standard solutions.
>
> Maybe other people have also ideas, hints or comments to this small mail?
> Thanks for your time
> Frank
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> [hidden email]
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[Frank Bueltge]

Yes; maybe it is possible that Automattic buy this project and change
the licence; like other projects.
Yes, it is a wish.

Best
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[Stas Sușcov]

În data de Thu, 02 Aug 2012 09:51:19 +0300, Mike Schinkel  
<[hidden email]> a scris:

> Looks great! But it's license is not GPL compatible. :-(
>
> -Mike
>

Yes it is!
I'm following this project for some time, and they switched the license  
just recently from GPL/MIT to CC-by-nc.

If you care, you can fork version 7.6.1:
https://github.com/imperavi/redactor-js/blob/master/js/redactor/redactor.js

But I doubt core team will ever move away from tinyMCE, this is a lot like  
git migration.
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[Otto-19]

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 2:59 AM, Stas Sușcov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Looks great! But it's license is not GPL compatible. :-(
>>
>
> Yes it is!
> I'm following this project for some time, and they switched the license just
> recently from GPL/MIT to CC-by-nc.
>
> If you care, you can fork version 7.6.1:
> https://github.com/imperavi/redactor-js/blob/master/js/redactor/redactor.js

If they've switched licenses to the point where we can't use any later
versions, then using the code makes no sense as there's no longer a
viable upgrade path.

-Otto
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[Frank Bueltge]

sorry, but I understand this important point.
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[William Satterwhite]

As mentioned this project has shifted it's licensing in a recent fork and
Otto was simply stating that if they do this again in the future and it
becomes incompatible with WordPress' licensing requirements then a viable
upgrade path goes out the window.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Frank Bueltge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> sorry, but I understand this important point.
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--
Hunter Satterwhite
http://linkedin.com/in/hsatterwhite
[phone]
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[Ryan Hellyer]

If they were alerted to the fact that changing their license back to
GPL could result in their software being many orders of magnitude more
popular, they may very well just change it.
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[Mika Epstein]

Arguably changing to CC-by-3 isn't even a legit license for software (mind, js is weird when it comes to that). Is generally a documentation license. Someone may want to point that out to them.


On Aug 2, 2012, at 9:38 AM, Ryan Hellyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If they were alerted to the fact that changing their license back to
> GPL could result in their software being many orders of magnitude more
> popular, they may very well just change it.
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[Mike Schinkel-6]

On Aug 2, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Otto wrote:
>> If you care, you can fork version 7.6.1:
>> https://github.com/imperavi/redactor-js/blob/master/js/redactor/redactor.js
>
> If they've switched licenses to the point where we can't use any later
> versions, then using the code makes no sense as there's no longer a
> viable upgrade path.

I was going to say the exact same thing, but Otto said it more elegantly.

On Aug 2, 2012, at 10:38 AM, Ryan Hellyer wrote:
> If they were alerted to the fact that changing their license back to
> GPL could result in their software being many orders of magnitude more
> popular, they may very well just change it.

That was my immediate thought as well. However it's clear the moved to the "NC" licenses so they could start selling licenses:

http://redactorjs.com/download/

But moving back to GPL would cut an easy, obvious and immediate revenue stream for them so I fear they would not want to switch unless someone could show them how to easily generate more revenue by switching back to GPL.

While we have discussed approaches on this topic for our own needs[1] maybe the list would be open to brainstorming how Redactor could generate more income if they were to switch back to GPL?  

- Is there any low-hanging fruit that could leverage that they have not considered?  
- Are there enterprise features that companies would pay handsomely for so that the base version that most people would need could be made GPL?  
- Are there any supporting subscription services they would be compelling enough to build a business around?
- Is there any other way they could generate income from switching to GPL?

I'm just thinking if we help them figure out how to switch to GPL and still generate the revenue needed to support their business they'd be much more likely to do so.

We haven't tested Redactor yet ourselves but on Frank's recommendation I think we would like to consider incorporate it into our planned GPL software if we could, and get rid of that PITA known as TinyMCE.

-Mike

[1] We're planning to release plugins to support our business that will be GPL licensed.
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[Stas Sușcov]

În data de Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:18:28 +0300, Mike Schinkel  
<[hidden email]> a scris:

> On Aug 2, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Otto wrote:
>>> If you care, you can fork version 7.6.1:
>>> https://github.com/imperavi/redactor-js/blob/master/js/redactor/redactor.js
>>
>> If they've switched licenses to the point where we can't use any later
>> versions, then using the code makes no sense as there's no longer a
>> viable upgrade path.
>
> I was going to say the exact same thing, but Otto said it more elegantly.
>

I don't see it that elegant.
I also don't believe such decisions should be adopted in great open-source  
projects: "If it's no longer supported, we won't bother looking at it...".
But, that's just my opinion.

Mike, me and others (I believe) are definitely looking forward if  
someone's going to make a plugin out of it, personally I'm keeping an eye  
on that project, as I see it as one of the most decent wysiwygs that can  
replace dinosaurs like tinymce.
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[Frank Bueltge]

"as I see it as one of the most decent wysiwygs that can replace
dinosaurs like tinymce."
this was my goal on start to this thread and discussion.

I think, its possible that WordPress show, that the GPL is great.
So much installs and people usage WordPress with an editor. I think
thats an great benefit for this editor, also in other projects and
trainings. It is possible, that peoplle write and speak about this lib
inside WP
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[Mika Epstein]

WordPress cannot drop GPL. There's too much in it that demands it, and unless you wanted to rewrite the whole thing from the ground up, it's just not an option. Can it be done? Yes. Would it? Not if it wanted to keep the name WordPress.

Yes, Redactor would be beneficial, but they're diesel fuel and we're a regular kind of car :/

On Aug 2, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Frank Bueltge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "as I see it as one of the most decent wysiwygs that can replace
> dinosaurs like tinymce."
> this was my goal on start to this thread and discussion.
>
> I think, its possible that WordPress show, that the GPL is great.
> So much installs and people usage WordPress with an editor. I think
> thats an great benefit for this editor, also in other projects and
> trainings. It is possible, that peoplle write and speak about this lib
> inside WP
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[Ryan Hellyer]

> WordPress cannot drop GPL.

I think Frank was suggesting that WordPress forks the GPL version of
the editor, not change it's own licensing to match the current version
of the editor code.
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[Andrew Ozz]

On 01/08/2012 11:38 PM, Frank Bueltge wrote:
> yes, the TinyMCE is an long story and big implementation.
> But maybe its an idea for the feature, that WP get an new editor -
> faster, smaller and an better customization, API, Filter- and Action
> Hooks.
>
> Current I like the Redactor Editor (http://redactorjs.com/)...

I like it too. However it's far from being ready for anything more than
comments/bbPress editor. Been following several jQuery based editors,
all have little more than the default browser contentEditable functionality.

This one is definitely more polished than most but still lacks a lot of
things. For example: no plugins, no way to extend it other than hack
into it, very minimal APIs, try copying and pasting something from
another browser tab, then look at the HTML. And a big one: no undo/redo
for all actions?
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[Mike Schinkel-6]

On Aug 2, 2012, at 6:08 PM, Andrew Ozz wrote:
> I like it too. However it's far from being ready for anything more than comments/bbPress editor. Been following several jQuery based editors, all have little more than the default browser contentEditable functionality.
>
> This one is definitely more polished than most but still lacks a lot of things. For example: no plugins, no way to extend it other than hack into it, very minimal APIs, try copying and pasting something from another browser tab, then look at the HTML. And a big one: no undo/redo for all actions?

Totally hypothetical question: Assuming they changed their license to be compatible with WordPress, would people in the WordPress community be willing to contribute to Redactor to improve on the limitations that you mention?

-Mike

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[Stas Sușcov]

În data de Fri, 03 Aug 2012 01:16:07 +0300, Mike Schinkel  
<[hidden email]> a scris:

> On Aug 2, 2012, at 6:08 PM, Andrew Ozz wrote:
>> I like it too. However it's far from being ready for anything more than  
>> comments/bbPress editor. Been following several jQuery based editors,  
>> all have little more than the default browser contentEditable  
>> functionality.
>>
>> This one is definitely more polished than most but still lacks a lot of  
>> things. For example: no plugins, no way to extend it other than hack  
>> into it, very minimal APIs, try copying and pasting something from  
>> another browser tab, then look at the HTML. And a big one: no undo/redo  
>> for all actions?
>
> Totally hypothetical question: Assuming they changed their license to be  
> compatible with WordPress, would people in the WordPress community be  
> willing to contribute to Redactor to improve on the limitations that you  
> mention?
>
>

I don't see this as a fair question.
Why people from WordPress, why not Drupal, or... any other CMS/blogging  
engine.

Fixing Andrew's list of missing features, doesn't necessarily mean  
WordPress will bundle it in core.
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[Andrew Ozz]

On 02/08/2012 3:16 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> Totally hypothetical question: Assuming they changed their license to
> be compatible with WordPress, would people in the WordPress community
> be willing to contribute to Redactor to improve on the limitations
> that you mention?

I don't know... Probably some will as it is nice. However considering
the amount of work needed, not sure if that would be enough. Roughly it
would take a good team of several full-time developers at least a year
to bring it closer to TinyMCE.

Nearly all JS editors get off the ground fast by adding UI to the
browsers built-in contentEditable functionality. Once there, most try to
tackle few more tasks and stop. The next step requires a lot of work:
creating APIs, dealing with tons of browser quirks, etc.

Currently there are several other editors at approximately the same
stage. The problem is that a lot of the functionality for editing HTML
should be in the browsers. It can be handles much better there than
trying to extend the limited contentEditable mode with JS.

So unless the browser vendors decide to sit down and make and implement
a nice specification for editing of HTML, don't see how this situation
would change.

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[Mike Schinkel-6]

On Aug 2, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Stas Sușcov wrote:
> I don't see this as a fair question.

There is no fair.  There only is.

> Why people from WordPress, why not Drupal, or... any other CMS/blogging engine.

Because this list is for WordPress developers, not for Drupal developers or developers of other CMS/blogging engines.  I don't think asking if the Drupal community would do something to benefit WordPress users would make much sense on this list, do you?  Would you go to the Romanian parliament and ask them if the Hungary, Serbia and Moldavia parliaments would be willing to do something for the benefit of the Romanian people?  Maybe, but I doubt the answers you'd get would be very authoritative.

> Fixing Andrew's list of missing features, doesn't necessarily mean WordPress will bundle it in core.

True, but irrelevant. Not fixing them means that WordPress would certainly never bundle in core, right?

Hypothetical questions are meant to explore possibilities, that's why I asked as a hypothetical.

-Mike

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[Mike Schinkel-6]

On Aug 2, 2012, at 7:00 PM, Andrew Ozz wrote:

>> Totally hypothetical question: Assuming they changed their license to
>> be compatible with WordPress, would people in the WordPress community
>> be willing to contribute to Redactor to improve on the limitations
>> that you mention?
>
> I don't know... Probably some will as it is nice. However considering the amount of work needed, not sure if that would be enough. Roughly it would take a good team of several full-time developers at least a year to bring it closer to TinyMCE.
>
> Nearly all JS editors get off the ground fast by adding UI to the browsers built-in contentEditable functionality. Once there, most try to tackle few more tasks and stop. The next step requires a lot of work: creating APIs, dealing with tons of browser quirks, etc.
>
> Currently there are several other editors at approximately the same stage. The problem is that a lot of the functionality for editing HTML should be in the browsers. It can be handles much better there than trying to extend the limited contentEditable mode with JS.

Really good points.  

> So unless the browser vendors decide to sit down and make and implement a nice specification for editing of HTML, don't see how this situation would change.


Any chance Matt might be willing to lobby his friends at Google and Mozilla to make this happen?  :)

-Mike
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